Snapshots Tampa Bay

What If You Outlive Your Money? Planning Today Prevents Probate And Panic Tomorrow.

• Lisa and Candace • Episode 14

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Ever wonder what actually happens to your home, your care, and your savings if life throws a curveball before your will is even read? We brought in elder law attorney Jon Kinsella to walk us through the real world playbook: how to plan for long term care, keep control of your house, and avoid preventable court delays that drain time and money.

We start by drawing a clear line between traditional estate planning and elder law. Distribution after death matters, but so does the question few ask out loud: what if you outlive your money? Jon explains the Florida friendly tools that balance control with protection, including the enhanced life estate (Lady Bird) deed. You’ll hear why it lets an owner keep full authority to sell during life while ensuring the property transfers automatically at death, often bypassing probate and preserving homestead benefits when used correctly. For families juggling real estate decisions, that difference can be the gap between a smooth sale and months of costly limbo.

From there, we get tactical. Turning 18? You need a durable power of attorney and a health care surrogate with HIPAA authorization so someone you trust can act and access information if needed. Bought a home, moved states, or had kids? Review wills and trusts every two to four years so your documents match your life. We also tackle the hard numbers on nursing care—often $13–14k per month—and how lawful Medicaid planning can protect a healthy spouse at home while securing needed care. Along the way, John demystifies probate, why it’s sometimes helpful, and how trustees can stay out of trouble with simple prep like dedicated trust bank accounts and organized records.

If you want clarity instead of a crisis when a decision can’t wait, this conversation gives you the vocabulary and next steps to act with confidence. Share this with someone caring for aging parents, a new homeowner, or any 18 year old heading to college. Subscribe for more Tampa Bay stories and practical guides, and leave a review to tell us what planning topic you want us to cover next.

For more information and resources related to this episode, visit hkhelderlaw.com to meet all your elder law needs. You can also contact them at (727) 240-2350 to schedule a free consultation!

Have questions about the area or suggestions on a topic, send us a text here!

Thank you for tuning into "Snapshots Tampa Bay with Candace and Lisa." We're thrilled to share our insights and adventures with you. To keep the conversation going and explore more about Tampa Bay and Central Florida real estate, connect with us on social media and other platforms!

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We look forward to connecting with you and hearing your thoughts. Don’t forget to subscribe, so you never miss an episode. Until next time, keep loving and exploring Tampa Bay!

Lisa:

Hi everybody, and welcome to Snapshot Tampa Bay with Candace and Lisa. Get ready to dive into the exciting and colorful world of the greater Tampa Bay area. Whether you're sorting out a military move, checking out the senior living scene, or just on the hunt for the coolest local spots, let's get started and have some fun.

Candace:

Hello there. This is Candace. Hi, Lisa. Hey. Now I'm going let you discuss a little bit more because this is a personal friend of yours. It is. And so I'll let you introduce what we're talking about today.

Lisa:

Oh fantastic. Okay, so I am it hopefully you guys listened to um our podcast a couple weeks ago. We had caring transitions in, and I had this thought, and I was like, I really need to get Jon Kinsella in here. So John and I know each other because our kids played hockey together. Of course. And of course, we see you know his kids all the time and um all around the rinks, and and actually we were on a flight together not too long ago. So so yeah, so um we had caring transitions on, and I thought about having John on because I think it would be great for you guys to actually work together. So Jon is with HKH Elder Law. So when you are thinking about doing estate planning, if you need to think about long-term care planning, this is an attorney's office who takes care of that for you. So, Jon, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do?

Jon:

Yes, uh, thank you for having me on. My name is Jon Kinsella, and I am an elder law attorney. So, what we do is we help seniors plan. The biggest word I could use to describe what we do is we plan. We help people plan for what happens if they outlive their money. Okay. Traditional estate planners will look at what happens with all of your stuff once you pass away. Where we differ from an estate planning attorney as elder law attorneys is we help people plan for what happens if they outlive their money. So if you're 80, 90 years old, you need long-term care, how are you gonna pay for it? How are you gonna support the spouse that's still at home? So it's all about planning, is what we do.

Lisa:

Oh, that's fantastic. That's really awesome because I know there are so many people who they don't even under they don't understand trust. They don't understand where is my house going? What is going to happen? And then you have, and Candace has had that. She had somebody who um the parents passed away, the house was in a trust, but how how do you work through the process of it? Of course, we're in real estate. So how do you get that home sold and things like that? And you and I were talking, um, not you just actually earlier today about a trust that a home can be put in. Can you talk a little bit about what people need to think about as far as real estate is concerned? Because that's our side of things.

Jon:

Yeah, as as far as um when you're looking at funding a trust with real estate, you always have to be careful of are you going to jeopardize um losing homestead exemption? There are some people that believe that you could lose your homestead tax benefit by putting it into a trust. We don't believe that you do, but we always like to play it safe. We recommend certain tools to maybe put the home or the real property into the trust after someone's passed away. Things like enhanced life estate deeds, which the nickname, if you've ever heard, is Ladybird Deed.

Lisa:

So Oh yeah, oh yeah. Okay, all right. I've heard of that before. Explain it a little bit more because you know I've never dealt with one. I I haven't in I've been in real estate six and a half years, never dealt with one. But if one comes up tomorrow, what are the things that whether it's me personally dealing with my parents or whether it's me as an agent trying to be better for my clients, can you talk about that type of you said it's a ladybird?

Jon:

Ladybird deed is the is the nickname for it. Uh we call it an enhanced life estate deed. So we have what we call traditional life estate deed and an enhanced life estate deed. Okay. So the difference between the two is the degree of control that the grantor retains once they've signed the deed. With a traditional life estate deed, they are giving away something current or presently giving away something. Like they're giving away a future interest to a remainder beneficiary.

Lisa:

Okay.

Jon:

So if they ever wanted to sell the property down the road, that remainder beneficiary is going to have to consent to it. Gotcha. Where we use enhanced life estate deeds, Lady Bird deed, is the grantor retains full authority, full power to sell and dispose of the property in any way they want. They don't need the consent for those remainder beneficiaries. Whether it's a human being or a trustee of a trust, they don't need that consent. That's important with what we do when we do long-term care planning because there's certain things that you have to do to make sure that people qualify for public benefits, and we have to make sure that we play by the rules. And an enhanced life estate deed is one of those tools that we use to help people.

Candace:

So, how would that differ with the regular one that they might have a successor trustee? Can the successor trustee determine whether they can sell a house if they're still alive?

Jon:

So the remainder men are named in the deed. The trustee is going to be someone named in the trust. So if it's a revocable living trust, the grantor, uh, whoever created the trust is most often going to be that initial trustee. That successor trustee is going to step in. Uh, and if there's different different reasons why they would step in. First reason would be loss of capacity. Grantor is still alive, but they've lost capacity, they don't know what day it is, they don't know the nature of their property and all those. So we need that successor trustee to step in. The other time, when the grantor passes away, of course, we need the successor trustee to step in. So at that point, once the once the property passes into the trust by virtue of that enhanced life estate deed, which is by operation of law, once the person passes away, that that property will pass into that trust by virtue of what the language in the deed says. So that's when that successor trustee would have the authority to basically step in and do what needs to be done with the property.

Candace:

So that does that help avoid long probate.

Jon:

It does. It does.

Candace:

Because what the law I've heard I've from what I understand, one the my most recent listings both were in trust, so I didn't have to worry about that.

Lisa:

Oh, but I have a friend whose father passed away. Nothing was in a trust. And everything's going through probate and that takes her. Oh my goodness. During that period of time. So she's out of pocket.

Candace:

So yeah, so now it's sitting if there's a mortgage, you're paying a mortgage, paying for all the utilities, and you can't sell the house.

Jon:

Right. Correct. So so if if we don't have a deed, like an enhanced life estate deed, or even a traditional life estate deed, or the property is not already titled in trust, then it's going to require probate. Probate's required for anything that someone owns in their name alone at F. No joint owners, no beneficiaries designated on it. So probate can be lengthy, but it's not always a bad thing. It's it's deadline driven. So the court, once the estate's open, there's just a series of deadlines to meet. Reasons probate take long is when beneficiaries aren't playing nicely with one another, or there's some sort of I wait, I don't know what you're talking about.

Lisa:

You mean siblings who are fighting? I don't know what you're talking about.

Jon:

There's so many different reasons why things can get messy. But sometimes in those situations, we want that core oversight. We want a judge to have that oversight over what's going on, especially if people aren't playing nicely with one another.

Lisa:

Okay, so I something just popped in my head, and this happens all the time. When should someone start coming to you and planning even for themselves? Because I sit here and I go, okay, what if what if something happens to me for my children? Because my house isn't in an is not in an estate. Um, but I don't necessarily want that to go through probate. You know, when is it the right time to come and talk to you guys?

Jon:

That's a great question. So we advocate or recommend that once someone turns 18, they do something. Okay. That's when they're an adult. Okay. And so man, I'm way past that. Oh, believe me.

Lisa:

Oh, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm still 30. I'm in my prime.

Candace:

What are you talking about? You might need to have a conversation.

Jon:

So and it doesn't always mean that they have to rush off and put a will or a trust together. I mean, if someone doesn't have an estate plan, the state of Florida is going to write it for them. And oftentimes, what the state of Florida dictates by Florida statute is going to be what the person would have wanted anyway, to their spouse or their children or heirs of law. But when someone turns 18, the documents that we like to push are things like durable powers of attorney and healthcare surrogates. So if something happens once you turned 18 and you don't have anything in place, your parents can't step in and act for you without those documents in place. So when I sent my oldest to college, I said, Hey, before you go, come stop by my office really quick. We're gonna talk about a few pieces of paper that we're gonna have you sign. So durable time attorney for dealing with property, we call it the everything but the kitchen sink document. So allow someone to kind of step into your shoes and handle business with regards to all of your property. Okay. Healthcare surrogate, this deals with the person. Allow someone to step in your shoes and consent to medical decisions or make medical decisions for you. And really an important component of that is the authority of this person to receive and review your health information. And you'd want that because if they're going to make that there's a HIPAA release here, and if they're if you're naming someone to make healthcare decisions for you, you want them to have as much authority as necessary to review all of your information so that they can make an informed decision. And I know we kind of got off track a little bit, but to answer the question at 18, those are two documents that we recommend.

Lisa:

Wow.

Jon:

A will and a trust may come later on down the road.

Lisa:

Yeah.

Jon:

And we can talk about what a will is, we can talk about what a trust is. Um, but the two documents that we like to push, and we call ourselves LO law attorneys, but we have young clients as well. Um durable power attorney, designation of healthcare surrogate. Extremely important documents.

Candace:

Yeah. Well, and you mentioned will. So how often, because my husband might do have a will, because he was in the military, so he was out to sea, so we need to make sure that we both had wills in case something happened, mainly to him. How often should you update that?

Jon:

It's a great question. Uh and I would say Because it's been a while. Well, we recommend that our clients will re review their estate plan every two to four years. Okay. That doesn't mean a change needs to be made every two to four years, but a review of it. We have people come into the office and say, hey, I've got my will, I'm good, right? Maybe. How old is it? Well, it's for 1988. Okay. Your kids were minors at that time. You don't need a guardian appointed for them because they're in their 30s or 40s now. Okay. Um, so life changes. You don't live at this address in the state of Vermont anymore. Now you're living in Tampa, Florida. So, what do you have? Do you where do you want things to go? Do you have grandkids? Do you have charities that you like? So it's always about looking at what's changed, have your have your wishes and desires changed. Um so hopefully that answers the question.

Candace:

It does. I'm glad you mentioned that health document um because you never know when something's gonna happen to you. You could be in a car accident, you could, my aunt Kelly passed away at the age of 43 from cancer. So, like those are things you don't expect that you you hope to live till you're 90 and you just die of old age, but that's not real life. So that's I didn't I've never even thought about that. And that's not anything that I was taught growing up. Like I think these are things that should be taught in schools, like like life lessons.

Lisa:

A lot of financial things should be taught in school because they don't teach budgets, they don't teach anything like that, and that's what we need to really like you calling your son in and having him come when he's 18 years old. I mean, he never would have thought about that.

Candace:

And in reality, I wouldn't have either I wouldn't either, because at 18, they're still going to college, you're still supporting them. So you would think, well, I'm the parent, I pay for everything still, but that's not in reality.

Jon:

We've seen the stories. I mean, we've we know I know someone, a woman whose um son got into an accident overseas, broke his arm, and documents were in place, so it made it difficult. Now, yeah, we they were she was a strong personality, so she got her way in the end, but there's no guarantee. My son, while he wasn't, I couldn't force him to sign those documents, I just nudged him. I said, these are important documents, you know, you need to think about who you're gonna name. Who do you want to make decisions for you? And that's a big focus on what we do as planners. When you say they don't teach us stuff, they don't. You you people don't know how to plan. I mean, it took me going to law school and I gotta figure all this stuff out for myself, too. Um, planning is so important, okay? So having things set up for the if this happens, what do we do? Situations because we don't know when we're gonna slip on that banana peel. I I've seen clients who had their high school sweethearts, you know, 30-year marriage, no documents in place, accident of the husband, brain damage, coma, nothing in place. So what happens then? We have to go to court. We have to go to court in a guardianship situation, and our and and where we where our focus is is we like to avoid the courts from being involved because it can be long and drawn out in a probate, or it can be long and drawn out and invasive in a guardianship situation, but it also costs an exuberant amount of money. It's so expensive. So we help people avoid that because attorneys aren't cheap, and neither is the process. I mean, whether it's my office or some other office, it's not going to be cheap. It's going to be very expensive, whether it's probate or guardianship.

Lisa:

Yep. Well, and it's just like um, you know, I did Dave Ramsey's series, you know, a long time ago. And it's like if you have an emergency fund or you're prepared for the future, then it's not an emergency when that happens. Because if we don't set these things in place for ourselves, you're placing that emergency on other people.

Jon:

Right. And and and I hear that almost every day. Oh, my parents didn't plan. I'm gonna plan so that I don't do this to my kids. Yeah. Because interestingly, our so our clients are elderly, so it could be anywhere from 70s on up to 100 years old. I mean, I had a woman who was 104 years old signing estate planning documents in my office.

Lisa:

Wow.

Jon:

So, I mean, and so it's I mean

Lisa:

Does she drink wine every day? That's my question, because you know, I want to know what she's doing.

Jon:

Um, but it wasn't her first, she was just doing an update. Um, we're helping people plan for what happens if you continue to live. What happens if you outlive your money?

Candace:

And she didn't expect to live to 100, probably.

Jon:

And she was just updating her estate plan. But a big part of what I do is long-term care planning. So I'm helping families deal with the crisis. Someone's gone to the nursing home, the nursing home's knocking on the door saying it's $13,000, $14,000 a month. Yeah, my grandfather had. My parents didn't plan. So so so my client is the parent, but I'm often working with son or daughter. Yes. Okay, or maybe it's brother or sister. Those aren't my clients, they're the power of attorney, they're the healthcare decision makers. They're I'm working with them on behalf of my client. Right. Because that's why these documents are so important. So we kind of walk with them, hold their hands throughout the whole process, and maybe we get a um a Medicaid application in place so that the state of Florida can assist with that $13,000 to $14,000 bill. But where am I going with this? It's what happens is these sons or daughters say, I don't want to be a burden for my children. What do I do? Can you help me with my estate plan? Of course I can. If you're a Florida resident. If you're a Florida resident, I can help them with an estate plan. I can help them put their plan together early. So maybe it kind of goes a little first full circle to your question: when should people begin thinking about this? I think 18, but sometimes it's something like this that triggers it. I need to go get everything squared away from mom and dad, but now I need to come back to you and say, my husband and I, or my wife and I need our estate plan. What do you recommend? It could be a will package, it could be a trust package. It it's different for every situation. None of what we do is cookie cutter, so we always want to make sure that whatever plan we're putting together is what makes sense for them.

Lisa:

Yeah. So well, I think you've kind of triggered me. Definitely. Yeah, because my husband and I. And I will tell you, he's fantastic. He and and we have worked really, really hard to really try to put money away and things like that, but we don't have anything in place. We have talked to the person who would take our children, but there's nothing in documentation.

Jon:

And yeah, I would so I'd strongly recommend it. Uh, you know, and that was um, it's not fun to think about. No. And and being an attorney, it took me a while to even do it for myself. Like, it's just not fun to think about.

Candace:

It's not fun to think about death, and I'm not gonna be around for my kids. And I mean, I don't have kids, but I have nieces and nephews, and I just imagine my brothers and their kids and what would happen if something happened to one of them.

Jon:

And in everything that we do, whether it's a document that we're drafting for someone, we don't want people to think of, oh, they're just coming to get a product from us. We're providing a service, we're giving them hopefully peace of mind, whether it's for an estate plan, whether it's through a long-term paid care plan, or a probate or trust administration. We're trying to make people's lives as easy as possible. And it can get easier if the planning's done. Again, probate's not bad. Sometimes we need it, sometimes we want it. Um, but if a probate's necessary, we will help people walk through it. If a trust administration is necessary, people have the option of doing it on their own. You don't you don't need an attorney for a trust administration, um, but we do help trustees stay out of trouble. So it's all about planning.

Lisa:

Yeah, I know um I actually had somebody who their parents they have the house in a trust, but they didn't have a bank account. So with real estate, yeah, you have to have a bank account with that trust name plus all the trust documents because you can say it's in a trust, but if you don't have the trust documents and there's so much that goes into it. So I know that um you would be a great resource for especially carrying transitions. We definitely need to um connect you with them because they're they are a great team and they they handle all the um the grunt work of um selling the choskies and cleaning out and having you know maid service and stuff like that. But thank you so much. I mean, I am now inspired to go. I know that my parents have a trust, but you know, my father's in my my father has dementia in Alzheimer's, and he's in the um the veterans uh memory care clinic in my mom's by herself, you know. So now we're looking at, okay, how do we help her out? And that's why it's so dear to my heart because helping her move during this time, it was not easy. And and you need people who are going to help prepare our elders. And I truly appreciate what you're doing for people. So thank you so much. And thanks for coming in because I learned a lot too, and I need to learn more. I definitely do. So, whenever you're like, do you have any classes that you guys teach or anything like that? The groups of people that can get together.

Jon:

So, thank you for reminding me of that. So, what we do is we offer a seminar online once a month for Medicaid. So, I'll I'll go through the Medicaid process. It's usually the second Wednesday of every month. Um, I'll get you connected on our on our newsletter. Perfect. But our website has that information. Um, so we do a Medicaid seminar, the ins and outs of Medicaid in Florida for long-term care. Then we have a probate or what to do when someone passes away seminar that we offer. They're all they're always on a Wednesday. Um, and I know I'd have to double check when that one's offered. Okay. And then the next one is the estate clinic seminar. And so each one is given by a different attorney. I'll do the Medicaid one. Um, one of the other attorneys at the office will do the estate planning, and then um our other attorney will do probate and just submit.

Candace:

So all of this information is on your website. It should be on our website as well. And we'll see that website.

Lisa:

We'll include your website in the notes of this podcast so people can look in directly to it.com. Correct.

Candace:

And I'll include it in the description of the podcast as well.

Lisa:

Well, thank you so much. Thanks for coming in. We loved having you today. I'm glad that you got to see the office and see everything over here. And, you know, guys, um, if you know someone who could use a little guidance and encouragement, whether it's a home journey or having their um parents and you need to plan for your parents or your parents already need to be planned for, um, can you share this podcast with them? Share it with somebody who you think needs to have it, and also make sure that you remember our friend John Kinsella, HKH Elder Law. We're gonna go ahead and tag you on everything. Um, thank you so much. And you know what, guys, until next time.

Candace:

Take a deep breath, enjoy the journey, and know that we'll get through this together.

Lisa:

Yes, we will, and especially when we have great connections.

Candace:

Yes. Thank you so much.

Lisa:

All right

Candace:

bye.

Lisa:

Bye. Thanks so much for joining Snapchat's Tampa Bay. Hit subscribe to catch our latest episodes and let us know in the comments what you want us to explore next. Keep loving the Tampa Bay vibes. See you guys soon.

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